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REAL-WORLD CASES
WHAT DRYING REALLY MEANS
DR. CUNNINGHAM
I'm Dr. Matthew Cunningham and I’m a Retina Specialist.
ARMYE
I’m Armye. I have DME and I love playing pool. Boom!
DR. CUNNINGHAM
Before you were diagnosed with DME, do you remember when your vision first started changing?
ARMYE
While I was playing pool, things were getting kind of fuzzy and I was willing to do whatever was needed.
DR. CUNNINGHAM
What would you say has stood out the most since starting VABYSMO?
ARMYE
After the first VABYSMO injection, I’m starting to notice the difference in my vision, the clarity started getting better and better.
DR. CUNNINGHAM
With VABYSMO we’ve been able to not only see vision gains that were pretty rapid, in your case, we’ve also been able to see sustained and rapid drying. This was a picture of the back of your right eye, and what you can see here is a fair amount of fluid that you had when we first initiated treatment. After that first injection, you can see –
ARMYE
That big bump went down.
DR. CUNNINGHAM
Exactly. So from where you started to today, where there’s decrease of swelling, it’s been a drastic improvement.
ARMYE
When I first came in, I knew I had that big mountain in my eye, but at the same time, I didn’t really understand it. But as we kept going on, you was instructing me, and telling me what the VABYSMO did for me. It made a big difference on what happened with me.
DR. CUNNINGHAM
You know, you nailed it on the nose, and I think, in your case, it went down, like you were thinking, from a mountain to a molehill, and what that means to me as your retina specialist is it gives me the confidence to know that I feel better spreading out the intervals in between your injections. Now we’re in between every 3 to 4 months in between your treatments. What does this mean for you in terms of the future?
ARMYE
That means less visits and more time for me to do other things, more pool time, just the fact that I can actually play more. I got a family life, I got grandchildren, I got to make time for everybody. And by giving me that time, you made it happen.
DR. CUNNINGHAM
It means the world to all of us as retina specialists and healthcare providers to get patients like you to regain vision. This is what we’re here for.
VABYSMO VIEWPOINTS
DR. TALCOTT
Are you excited for today?
DR. SHETH
I’m super excited. Oh, look at this.
DR. TALCOTT
Such a beautiful set.
I really find these sit-downs inspiring. There’s just so much to learn from hearing about other physicians’ experiences.
DR. SHETH
I always find these conversations very enlightening. When I hear other physicians’ experiences, it allows me to provide better care to my patients.
DR. SHETH
All right, Kat.
DR. TALCOTT
Let’s get this started.
DR. SHETH
Let’s chat for a minute here.
DR. SHETH
So Kat, we’ve been retina specialists for a while now. What have you seen change just in terms of treatment landscape and how you approach patients with AMD, DME, and RVO, for example?
DR. TALCOTT
Yeah, I think that’s a great question. All the time that I’ve been in practice we’ve been lucky to have lots of different tools in the toolbox, but most of them have targeted VEGF. But we have good options for treating AMD, for DME, and RVO. How about you? What have you noticed over the past few years?
DR. SHETH
Yeah. You know, we’ve had anti-VEGFs for a long time, which really set the bar high, so we’ve had thankfully ways to treat patients that we didn’t prior to the advent of antiVEGFs, and we know a lot about how those work. But I think when we started to see new mechanisms of action explored, for me, being in some of these clinical trials and actually working with molecules like faricimab, or VABYSMO, early on since 2016—and I think, part of it is because the bar was so high with the initial treatments that we did get—but it’s really nice to see over time that evolve, and we’re starting to join those colleagues in saying look, there’s more than one pathway we need to address to really kind of continue to build on the success we’ve had with these treatments.
DR. TALCOTT
Yeah, we’ve been able to have such good treatments for so long. And it’s exciting to have sort of new opportunities and new treatment options.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, it only took 10 years, 15 years? I mean, it was about time we came up with something, right?
DR. SHETH
We've had these great treatments with anti-VEGFs for a long time. What do you think the value of addressing a second mechanism of action, specifically Ang-2, brings to our patient care?
DR. TALCOTT
I think it's really exciting to have this bispecific molecule that targets the Ang-2 pathway as well. And some of the benefits of targeting this pathway include the possibility of decreasing vascular leakage, inflammation, stabilizing vessels, as well as sensitizing those vessels to the effect of anti-VEGF medications.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, and I think that addressing two mechanisms of action is something we've been thinking about for a long time. I mean, our friends in cardiology, oncology, you name it, they've been looking at multiple pathways for years, if not decades.
And we know our patients have just inherent leakiness to those vessels, potentially in our diabetics, for example, we're seeing kind of vascular issues just globally in those eyes.
DR. TALCOTT
Totally. If you get fluorescein angiography on those patients, you'll often find that they just have like so much leakage. So we know those things are important to retina disease in these patients and potentially targeting that might help better control their disease.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, I mean, all of those things impact our patients and what's happening in their retina.
DR. TALCOTT
So, we were talking about how we have lots of different tools available to us. How do you choose what medicine to start a patient on?
DR. SHETH
Yeah, it's a lot more complicated today, right? A few years ago we had a couple tools in the toolbox and now we've got quite a few. And so I think there's a few factors that really kind of lead the charge for me.
We want to look at vision, obviously vision outcomes matter to patients, right. They want to be able to see that's the thing that makes them most anxious. Whatever treatment we're deciding on really has to address that component of it as well.
When I pick a treatment, I want rapid drying. And then durability. I think about how long will these treatments last on that patient’s eye. Because at the end of the day, if I can tell a patient they may need fewer injections over time, I mean, that's a meaningful difference in their life.
DR. TALCOTT
It's really powerful to be able to tell a patient, I'm only going to need to see you like 3 or 4 times a year versus like, I'm going to need to see you like every month or two.
DR. SHETH
And then the safety side of it, right? What am I looking at in terms of safety? With intravitreal injections, we're thinking about things like retinal detachment. We're thinking about things like endophthalmitis, retinal vasculitis. And so those are the things that I think about in terms of really being critical for safety for our patients.
DR. SHETH
So thinking about those two avenues, efficacy and safety. How do you look at a treatment like VABYSMO?
DR. TALCOTT
So for me of those two it needs to be safe, then I think about efficacy, especially as a first-line treatment.
DR. SHETH
Yes, absolutely.
DR. TALCOTT
And I know that you were involved in part of these clinical trials. Like can you tell me a little bit about your experience in terms of the results?
DR. SHETH
Yeah, so we were part of the clinical trials for macular degeneration, diabetic macular edema and RVO. And just keep in mind these were some of the largest clinical trials run for these diseases
And the primary endpoint for these trials is vision. We're looking at best corrected visual outcomes and comparing it to aflibercept in these cases. And what we saw is that faricimab, or VABYSMO, was noninferior to aflibercept and keeping in mind that aflibercept was dosed much more frequently. So what we're saying is at less frequent dosing, we saw results that were noninferior to something that was given much more often.
And when you have big patient populations like that, you can apply that data more broadly.
DR. TALCOTT
I mean, the clinical trial data is very important. But often our clinical trial patients are different than the patients we take care of every day in clinic. You know, some of these patients have been on treatment for like years, so one of the things as I get a new treatment available to me in clinic is I'll often start it on my recalcitrant patients. So those new vascular AMD patients who need injections like every 4 to 6 weeks, or those diabetic patients who need treatment very frequently as well. And then once I switch them over, I see, like, does their OCT look better? Does their fluid look better? Am I able to go potentially like longer between injections? And that really gives me a sense of how the medicine works in clinic.
DR. SHETH
I think for me, when a new treatment comes out and specifically a treatment like VABYSMO comes out and we get to see that in action, and we get to use this on patients that we've been treating for a long time, and we see the progress that we're making, those are the types of things we need to see to make these newer treatments our first-line therapies. And that’s, I think, for me in my practice, that's what we've seen.
DR. TALCOTT
Totally. By treating those recalcitrant patients, it gives you confidence. It makes you feel more comfortable with the medicine. And so then it's easier to transition to using it sort of first line.
DR. SHETH
So, when you think about treating these diseases, what are some of the things that are more important to you in terms of how you look at that initial therapy?
DR. TALCOTT
My goal really is to get their disease under control as quickly as possible. And that means minimizing fluid that's there on the OCT scan or hemorrhage that's present in the case of AMD. So I would like to get to this next phase where we're really trying to be able to extend them.
DR. SHETH
From my standpoint, when I think about it, I like to go to treatment like VABYSMO right off the bat. So for me, VABYSMO has become, in my practice, the first-line treatment because with VABYSMO, we see rapid and sustained drying, which will give patients durability. You know, their ability to do all those things we talked about that concern them, and do it without that anxiety that kind of tied them into that first visit when we saw them initially.
So I like to start with a treatment like VABYSMO, because I'm seeing great drying and durability outcomes.
And with the advent of the prefilled syringe, in my practice, patients are waiting less, they're getting their treatment in a timely fashion. And I think that helps just from a comfort standpoint for patients as well.
So those are the things that I think about in terms of how I choose the treatment for those patients.
DR. TALCOTT
I think also that it's hard to predict at the outset how much treatment someone is going to need.
DR. SHETH
I don't think it's easy to predict for any of our patients, right? I mean, each patient is so different. And I think one of the nice things about a treatment like VABYSMO, for example, is you have treatment that's flexible. I can use it kind of in different ways for different patients, different duration, and durability, can be different for patients. And so it allows us that flexibility for those patients.
DR. TALCOTT
But I think one of the things that I'm also struck by is I don't know how much at these initial visits, I'm talking to the patients about differences in individual medicines. And I'm interested to hear if you are.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, you know, from my standpoint, I look at that patient in front of me and think about if that patient was my mother, what would I want to use for that patient, what kind of treatment would I go to first line?
It makes it easy because if you naturally gravitate towards a treatment, so for me in particular, that's VABYSMO because I can treat that patient with less treatments. And at the end of the day, again, it's my mom. I would love for her to remain independent and not have to come in as often for treatments.
DR. TALCOTT
So it sounds like it needs to pass the mom test.
DR. SHETH
It needs to pass the mom test.
DR. TALCOTT
That’s great. That’s good to hear.
DR. TALCOTT
One of the things we talked about is durability. And personally, I think that drying and durability are almost one in the same. You really can't have one without the other.
DR. SHETH
And when you say dry you want to get them really free of all fluid, intraretinal fluid, subretinal fluid. What's your concept?
DR. TALCOTT
My goal, to be honest, is to tell what someone's visual potential is. And I don't really know that until the fluid is totally gone. Right. So I try and see what they look like without any intraretinal fluid or subretinal fluid first. And then I get a sense of where the vision can get to. And then beyond that I'll tolerate sometimes—depends on the condition a little bit—a little bit of fluid if I'm able to go longer in between, and their vision doesn't change. How about you?
DR. SHETH
Oh, I agree. I mean, I think if we were really to get them in the best, driest place possible, I think clinically that's going to give us the best outcome.
So when we think about durability, do you look at kind of treatment-naive patients or those patients you're just starting off for the first time differently than the patients that you might be switching to VABYSMO?
DR. TALCOTT
I don't think we should think about it differently. If you can get someone dry sooner, I think that can lead to better visual outcomes. And if you can get them on a more durable treatment sooner, or get them those longer intervals sooner, then that's better for that.
DR. SHETH
I think I probably do look at them a little bit differently in the sense that patients that are being switched over tend to be more chronic patients. And so their disease, if it hasn't been well controlled, has had time to morph into something that's a little more aggressive. And I think it's important to get these patients clinically better, drier, right away if you can, because I think then that allows us that ability in the long run to provide them better durability.
DR. TALCOTT
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, the longer someone's fluid has been there, you know, the more chance it has to destroy their retina and lead to sort of suboptimal visual outcomes. So if you can, get them drier sooner.
To be honest, I'm pretty focused on what the OCT scan shows. Getting people to be able to get dry in the first place is incredibly important, but I find that that's not the biggest challenge in sort of taking care of patients. I think that most of the times we're able to get them dry so the OCT scan showed no intraretinal fluid or subretinal fluid, but it's harder being able to maintain that, especially at sort of longer intervals.
I don't know about you, but my patients have become like experts at reading their OCT scans as well. Like, our technicians will often pull them up in a room, and the patients will be able to already see, like if it looks better or looks worse. I don't know if your patients are like that.
DR. SHETH
Oh yeah. They know before I walk into the room what's going to happen next, right. And so I think you're exactly right. I think we have options that dry, which is great. And you're right, not just getting them dry, it's keeping them that way. And so yeah, I use the OCT scans as well really as my primary tool to make sure that the patients are at that point clinically that we want them.
DR. TALCOTT
We've been talking a lot about the relationship between drying and durability. But when you think about this treatment, what's the first thing that you think about?
DR. SHETH
You know, when I think about VABYSMO, the first thing I think about is drying.
When that patient is getting treated with a medicine like VABYSMO, they're able to achieve the outcomes we're hoping that they achieve. The reason I think about VABYSMO first is because I know that they're going to get a rapid drying effect from that. And once they're dry, I know that that drying is going to be sustained. And while they're at home, I don't want to have to worry, okay Is the disease starting to come back? Are they starting to reaccumulate fluid again? And that is really what drives the durability aspect in my mind, because if I can keep them dry, if I can sustain that dryness, I know that I can extend that interval out for my patients.
DR. SHETH
So when we talk about durability and our ability to space these treatments out, what are you noticing in your clinic?
DR. TALCOTT
For the patients who I'm starting on first-line treatment for, it really depends on the patient in front of me. I definitely have patients with AMD, with DME who I've been able to get out to every sort of 16 weeks. But there's some patients, as we know, no matter sort of what we treat them with, they're going to be harder to control.
Sometimes we get those patients that are really hard to treat, and we do need to have them on 4 to 6 weeks. But the nice thing about this treatment is we have the flexibility, no matter where they end up, to be able to treat them without concern for insurance coverage and reimbursement. How about you? What's your experience?
DR. SHETH
I think the patients that we’re starting fresh, those treatment-naive patients, I think the majority of them we can get to extended dosing intervals 12 weeks, 16 weeks many times. If I’m starting them on VABYSMO, I can get the majority of those patients to three, four months between their treatments once they're stable.
DR. SHETH
The patients that we switch over, it’s a little trickier to predict, and I think their disease is just more chronic and multifactorial. But even a lot of those we can get them extended beyond what they were on originally.
DR. TALCOTT
And my patients on it, I think really appreciate having that extended interval.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, absolutely.
DR. TALCOTT
One of the things that we talked about was flexibility. How does the label really support that?
DR. SHETH
The label is great at telling us medically what we can do. But at the end of the day, what we want to make sure is that these medications and the treatments are reimbursed by the payers. And one of the things that those payers use is going to be the label. If the label in this case for VABYSMO says we can treat in a flexible way—one month, two months, up to four months—then we can treat confidently without worry that there's going to be a payment issue or reimbursement issue.
DR. TALCOTT
Yeah. I mean, the patients who we’re treating with these injections, they have other doctors who they see, they have other medical bills that they have to take care of. And I don't know about you, but, if there's been a problem with someone's bill and a patient gets charged sort of unexpectedly, it can be altering to their ability to maintain their monthly budget.
And so, I like as a physician, being able to have the confidence to know they're going to be reimbursed for the medicine that we're giving, which I think that you have here because of the label.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, absolutely. There's plenty of hurdles that the patients have in getting the best care. And if we can eliminate those things, like having a flexible label, I think that's one thing that helps them get that best care.
DR. SHETH
So Kat, when we look at newer therapies entering kind of our landscape, the payer mix changes as well, right? And so it becomes more complicated. How are you navigating that? What are the things you have to think about?
DR. TALCOTT
Yeah. So I think unfortunately really, for us as retina specialists and for our patients, it feels like there’s becoming more steps to sort of jump through in order to be able to sort of get patients the treatment that we intend to. Have you experienced that at all?
DR. SHETH
Yeah, it’s unfortunate because sometimes we have to start with treatments that we may not want to start as first line treatments, but we start them because it’s mandated essentially for that patient. And so we start those treatments, and we do what we have to if that patient’s not doing well to make sure we can then step to the next therapy. With VABYSMO, if it’s not initially covered, we do the initial treatment that we have to, and then eventually step that patient through to VABYSMO and get them the outcome that we hope for.
DR. TALCOTT
If that’s the case, where you have to step through something else, what are the things that you’re telling patients along the way?
DR. SHETH
We’re transparent with the patients, you know. We have to be, because at the end of the day, you know, this is a team, right? And what we’re talking to about the patient is you know selection—what medicines we’re picking and why, and I think a lot of what drives why unfortunately is not the medical aspect of it, it’s what we have to do.
DR. TALCOTT
Anything we can do to I think like reduce barriers towards getting patients the treatment that they need is only appreciated, and I’ll tell them that. Our goal is to be able to get to this other therapy, but it is a little bit of a process. I think patients understand that, but it’s also really frustrating.
DR. SHETH
So, when we talk about access, you know what are the things you look for in a treatment and the ability to kind of get patients access to these treatments?
DR. TALCOTT
With VABYSMO, one of the things that I’m excited about is the flexibility of dosing, so I feel confident that we’re going to be able to get reimbursed, but also that coverage is pretty good overall, where you are able to, in most cases, be able to give this treatment as you intend to as first line or within three injections. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for being able to get patients the treatment that they need.
DR. SHETH
Yeah, I agree. There is pretty good coverage for VABYSMO; I would say probably greater than 90%. Either initially or after that step therapy.
DR. SHETH
There’s programs in place to help us get access to VABYSMO for patients that may not have coverage, and that’s what I love about it.
DR. TALCOTT
It's great to hear that. It's certainly a bright spot.
DR. TALCOTT
This has been such a great discussion. You know, hearing about some of these sort of challenges that I face in my clinic, taking care of patients who sort of need frequent treatment and sort of how to address that. I really appreciated hearing your perspective on things.
DR. SHETH
I don't think there's been a time where we haven't had coffee, where I hadn’t learned something new and then used that, you know, a week later in my own practice. I think we all do things differently. It's like we all have the same information we get to soak in, but then we apply all these learnings differently.
DR. TALCOTT
Definitely. And once you're done with training, you know, I feel like sometimes we get stagnant in our own ways of thinking about things, and it's so nice to hear about how other people do things, maybe differently to give you kind of like a fresh approach to things.
DR. SHETH
That’s the beauty of it.
DR. TALCOTT
I’ve learned so much from you.
DR. SHETH
So we got to have these conversations often and throughout our careers.
DR. TALCOTT
I’m really looking forward to it.
DR. SHETH
All right.
DR. TALCOTT
Thank you.
DR. SHETH
After you, Kat.
DR. TALCOTT
So good to see you.
DR. SHETH
We’re gonna have to do this again one day.
DR. TALCOTT
Totally. I agree. It was a lot of fun.
EXPERT TESTIMONIALS
†Reductions in CST over time were prespecified secondary endpoints. Reductions in CST were observed across all treatment arms throughout the six Phase 3 studies in nAMD, DME, and RVO.1 See additional information on the Drying page
‡In nAMD and DME after 4 and 6 monthly (DME only) loading doses. Monthly dosing for 6 months in RVO.1 See additional information on the Durability page
PODCASTS
From Trials to the Clinic: Using a Therapy With a Novel MOA to Treat Patients With DME
From Trials to the Clinic: Using a Therapy With a Novel MOA to Treat Patients With DME
A Treatment With a Novel MOA for Patients With nAMD and DME: Perspectives From the Real World
A Treatment With a Novel MOA for Patients With nAMD and DME: Perspectives From the Real World
Explore drying data across all 3 indications
When dosing needs change, access doesn’t have to
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VABYSMO [package insert]. South San Francisco, CA: Genentech, Inc; 2024.
Data on file. South San Francisco, CA: Genentech, Inc.
Data on file. South San Francisco, CA: Genentech, Inc.
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